No on Prop 8 Vigil

Hi,
I just signed a pledge to repeal Prop 8 and I thought you might be interested in joining me and over 100,000 Courage Campaign members across California.

We have to come together right now to say that we refuse to accept a California where discrimination is enshrined in our state constitution.

Please sign the "Repeal Prop 8" pledge now and forward this to your friends as soon as possible:

http://www.couragecampaign.org/RepealPro...

Thanks!

Sore losers. Hey we have to live with Obama, I'm sure you can move on with life without redefining a word. Isn't there anything more important to devote your energy to?

Maybe for people who were allowed to get married one day, then woke up NOT being allowed to, this *is* one of the most important things to devote energy too. Congratulations to you if you've never had rights stripped from you or denied to you in the first place due to "popular" vote.

Also, in case it never crossed your mind, there are some people who can devote energy and money to more than one important cause at a time.

This isn't a soccer game, so your "Sore losers" comment comes off as more playground-sounding than usual, even for you, Shaw.

But speaking of losers, you and those who are into discrimination are going to be on the losing side of history -- it's just going to take a little more time. I think you know it, just like everyone else does. Savor your temporary "victory" for bigotry and discrimination all you want.

A slim margin of voters didn't see it this way, but there IS nothing more important to some people than speaking up against the discrimination they see in this proposition and in our society. They will not just shut up and go away now. Sorry, but you will be hearing more about this.

To an undeniable degree, have Obama and his appeal to the christian right as recently as two days before the election to thank for Prop 8's victory http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopi...

MARRIAGE

Don't tell me words don't matter.
I have a dream. Just words?
We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal. Just words?
We have nothing to fear but fear itself. Just words?

“Domestic partnership and marriage are not equal,” Ms. Stewart said. “Words matter. Names matter.”

The Supreme Court here was the first state high court to strike down a law barring interracial marriage, in a 1948 decision called Perez v. Sharp. The United States Supreme Court did not follow suit until 1967.

Ms. Stewart asked whether giving interracial couples the same rights under a different name — “say we called it transracial unions instead of marriage,” she said — would have satisfied the state Constitution in 1948.

“The essence of the right to marry is freedom to join in marriage with the person of one’s choice,” Chief Justice George said at one point, quoting a passage from the Perez decision by Justice Roger J. Traynor,

"First they came for the unions, but I didn't speak up because I wasn't union.
Then they came for the communists, but I didn't speak up because I wasn't a communist.
Then they came for the Jews, but I didn't speak up because I was Protestant.
And then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak up."
- Reverend Martin Niemoller
German Lutheran monk arrested by the Gestapo in 1937

"Sore losers."

You would have said the same thing to those who protested the Dred Scott decision.

Hold your marches.
Sign your virtual pledges.

The measure passed - it is the will of the people (no matter what the margin) and therefore will be enforced.

The proposition will force other states to seriously consider it individually (if they haven't already) vs. being able to say "they did it in California - we can't stop it".

Thanks Gavin for the great "whether you like it or not" - you really help ground a response to the proposition.

"You would have said the same thing to those who protested the Dred Scott decision."

No I would not! Dred Scot was a slave and was not trying to redefine a word for his own personal selfish thrill. For you to even ATTEMPT to compare your petty cause to the enslavement of a race is shameful at best!

Gays are not "enslaved" by the fact they can't claim the word marriage to describe their perverted union.

Jesus, Shaw. Perverted? Is it all about your fear of same-sex, not same-sex marriage, then? Get some gay friends and start to try, just try, to empathize with how they feel, then pass your judgment. I can certainly empathize with you, having in my distant past probably been inclined to succumb to the same fear you display. Just like the anti-miscegenation laws of the past, this too will be overturned, and for the exact same right reasons.

The reason that states initially implemented wedding licenses earlier in the century was to control inter-racial marriages. If you don't think Prop 8 is discriminatory, then you haven't really thought about it.

Besides, from this we can see that there really is no reason the state should have anything to do with marriages. The government's job is to enforce the contracts, there is no reason they need to have anything to do with what the contract states.

People should not get tax breaks because they are married. People who are married should not have to add their taxes together in order to create a household income. There is no reason for any of this nonsense. There is really no reason the state needs to know anything about our personal lives.

Marriage was originally a religious institution, not a state institution. All these people arguing language are arguing about religion, not the state, which is supposed to protect equality for all individuals. Let the people and the churches handle it, and don't worry what your neighbor down the street is doing because it doesn't affect you unless you let it. If marriage was purely a religious institution, and not a state institution, there are very few, if any, gay people who would want to get married in the first place. They are only asking for it because it is a state function, and the state is not treating individuals equally in this case.

And to anybody who voted "Yes" on Prop 8.. screw you. Your fascist authoritarianism sickens me. Now, I know you may have voted that way because you felt your religion was being threatened, but you shouldn't enact fascist laws to fight fascism. Instead, try enacting freedom. That is the Christian answer. Freedom of religion is inherent in the constitution. There is no reason why any religion should be forced to marry gay couples or authorize gay marriage, this would be taking away their freedom to practice their religion.

Chief Justice Roger Taney ruled that slaves did not have the rights of citizens because Harriet and Dred Scott were, quote, "Beings of an inferior order, and altogether unfit to associate with the white race, either in social or political relations, and so far inferior that they had no rights which the white man was bound to respect."

So much for 'all men are created equal'. Leaving the obvious omission of women here, it would seem that the Dred Scott case was all about defining the word 'man'. Taney ruled that Dred Scott was not a man.

If this were merely a 'cheap thrill', then 75 millions dollars would not have been spent on it. People on both sides would not be as upset as they are. we would not all be posting to blogs about it. If it's just a 'cheap thrill' AShaw, then why do YOU care so much about it? It's not just a word- it's a fundemental human right.

If gay people have the same rights 'except' then where do the exceptions end?

Can you imagine!!? Trying to redefine a word!!!!!

I've never heard of such an abomination. And I'm certainly sure that such a vile act has never occurred before.

Shaw, your effort to call a loving relationship between two people "perverted" is what's really "shameful at best."

Gay marriage will be legal and widespread someday. You know it, I know it, and so does everyone else. Enjoy yourself for now... we'll be laughing last.

Nice, now I know who vote and not vote for come next election.

The world is going down the crapper, and people are mad over a word.

I have so many friends out of work, others losing their homes, I have friends in Iraq - and I can pretty much promise this is the last thing they are worried about right now.

" 'Sore losers.

You would have said the same thing to those who protested the Dred Scott decision." -JQB-

Ironically, Fred Phelps was a prominant civil rights attorney back in the 60's and is still quite proud of his work.

tegrat there is a difference between fear and disgust. Why is everyone that is disgusted with gay behavior tagged as fearful or homophobic? You don't get it.

Am I still here? The Indy apparently didn't like what I said so they removed my profile and comments, without even leaving a bubble! How rude. So much for dissenting opinion and free speech on this blog.

Oh I'm back - I thought they closed my account. How boring this would be if you all had nobody to hate!

Here's what disgusts me. There are selfless real men and women leaving for Iraq to put their lives in harm's way so you demanding selfish babies can have your "rights". You act like a bottle was taken away from you. There are more than twenty comments on this subject and not a word of support or gratitude for the troops leaving from our own hometown to defend your freedom to express yourselves and ensure your rights, even though the article has been posted over three days.

http://www.independent.com/news/2008/nov...

We are free to do and say whatever we want here thanks to these men and women, try marching down the streets in Tehran with your demands and see what happens. Want to know why the Arab world considers us "the Great Satan?" Want to know why they really hate us? Immorality my friends, we are evil and immoral to them. They are religious family oriented people. Look at yourselves instead of George Bush. They don't want homosexuality or (the"phenomenon" as Ahmadinejad calls it) corrupting their families and religion as it has here.

In Iran you would be hung, here you have never been enslaved, you don't have to use separate drinking fountains or ride in the back of the bus, and you act like it's something akin to the way blacks were treated. I would be insulted if I were black. but you call it "discrimination" when you can't redefine something you really have never had in the first place. Keep acting up, you aren't building any love for your cause. It isn't the act that disgusts me , it's the attitude and hypocrisy of your own intolerance and hate.

Like I said, AShaw, I think you and everyone else knows it's just a matter of time before GAYS and LESBIANS can "flaunt" their legal marriages "in your face" and in the faces of every other bigot across the land. You're on the losing side of time.

Also, it's not "intolerant" to have no tolerance for bigoted haters. You are not an oppressed class, as much as you'd loooove to think of yourself as one. Sorry. FAIL.

I also think that this thread is effectively shut down now, due to an Amendment I'd like to propose to Godwin's Law: i.e., all debate is finished when someone starts using the argument "try doing this in Tehran or Riyadh!"

I voted for the poor sods to have the right to marry, but the people of this state have voiced their opinion and you have lost. Stop the protesting as this is only pissing people off more, including myself who was in favor of same sex marriage. Gay people say its not their choice (which after taking many classes and having several gay friends might be 50% true in my opinion as most of it seems to stem from abuse and negative past experiences in childhood and early adolescense ). This would make it a chemical imbalance like many other things we have drugs for. When half this state is gay you might have your way but untill then enough already with prop h8 and the continual protesting.

The "poor sods" don't want your pity (and from the tone of your comment, I wouldn't doubt if you are lying through your teeth about your vote against Prop 8).

The history of this country has proven that rarely do the minority get their civil rights justly decided for them by the majority, in case all you populists hadn't noticed.

Also, nice of you to express your layman's opinion about "chemical imbalances," but professional associations of psychology & psychiatry agree with you not one whit. Also, if you hadn't heard, religion is a "choice," yet people are free to practice and worship as they like despite any religious "choice" they might make -- thus, it really shouldn't matter if being gay is inborn or "chosen," does it?

You may have had "enough already", but it's not going to stop. You're eventually going to live in a state if not a country with gay marriage. Eight years ago, you won by 61%, this year you won by little over 50%. "It's gonna happen, whether you like it or not..."

Are we still on this tired topic?

PROP 8 PASSED

and all of the wacky challenges created will fail.

Let's move on to clearing up the open races for Tony & Steve here in Santa Barbara.

Jesus, Shaw. A difference between fear and disgust? Perhaps therapy could clear this up for you. Look, I don't hate you, far from it. You are clearly homophobic, and I have certainly been homophobic myself. But get over it. There's nothing to fear. Gay people make wonderful friends. They are equally funny, insightful, vivacious, loyal, and worthy of your admiration as your presumably heterosexual friends. Why would you deny them the right to call their (hopefully) life-long commitment to each other a marriage? It simply makes no sense. Your God would be saddened by your lack of Christian values.

Joe Allegretti writes "I also think that this thread is effectively shut down now, due to an Amendment I'd like to propose to Godwin's Law: i.e., all debate is finished when someone starts using the argument 'try doing this in Tehran or Riyadh!' "

Sorry Joe, the only blogger who is allowed to interpret Godwin's Law is Binky.

On a serious note (and perhaps before Binky shuts down this thread) While I agree with AShaw about the Muslim world, I'm going to take a left turn on what he said. He's right about the Muslim world hating us because of our sexually libertine ways, but I would add that it's a contradiction for the pro-war movement to send troops to that part of the world thinking we are going to win the hearts and minds of people when our own country is in such a moral mess.

We have lots of our own people dying over there (and Iraqis as well) but how can we win this war while our own country has thrown God out of every facet of life?

I'm no lawyer, but was a land use planner for 28+ years, and to paraphrase a landmark court case, "If a cop on the beat needs to know the Constitution, why not planners?"

Prop. 8 creates a fundamental inconsistency within the State Constitution. To remedy this, either Prop. 8 must be nullified, or the Constitution's guarantee of equal rights for all people must be modified. It's that simple.

I prefer the former solution, not the latter.

In response to these christain hollier than thous.... first of all the middle east is not against this country because of homosexuals... it a little thing they have never forgottne called the CRUSADES! Strike a note.. where "christian solders" marched into the middle east and slaughterded tens of thousand woman and children of the muslem persaution..... Then another great move on behalf of religion... the 100s of people in this country killed and burned at the stake for being witches..... not to mention the religious influence behind the KKK.... burning crosses... hanging innocent people... buring thier homes to the ground.... the mormons and others totally against blacks having equal rights or being allowed to join their gated temples... THIS is what religion stand for.. HATE and if you dont believe be.. check a history book. And this thing they call curing the gays with electro shock theraphy... you dotn CURE gay you just drive them back in the closet and make you feel better about your bigotry....

Joe Allegretti, you speak of a right being "taken away". What is constantly NOT mentioned is that Prop. 22 passed in 2000, and was overturned less than a year ago by the vote of ONE Supreme Court Judge in California. What you and others may fail to see is that many in California think this IS up to the voters. I could also say that the Supreme Court Judge took away MY and OTHER'S votes from 2000.

By the way, all who are not for gay marriage are not ANTI-gay. It's such a misconception, and feels ridiculous when this view is constantly being spouted by those who are "not on Prop. 8".

How long before the tradition of throwing Christians to the lions gets revived?