Long-Term Gang Response Unveiled

I am a non-police investigator of two homicides by local gangs. This action is due - overdue - and shows the vital leadership at S.B.P.D. needed to address this difficult problem. We are lucky to have such well educated, intelligent and keen investigators working this on a daily basis, and that shows the progressive and hands-on leadership of the police chief, and the men and women under him, as well as the good support of city government.
Kudos.

A gang "czar?" What we're getting here is one more expensive appointed position, a lot of PR noise, and no progress.

Cam's daughter is hot

"But despite Santa Barbara’s much vaunted jobs program—funded for $850,000 over three years—only 10 found employment."

Wow! What a great investment of my tax dollars. I hope these 10 kids will be paying at least $85,000 each in taxes to the City to pay for this boondoggle. Lets see - if they pay about a third of their salary to the Federal and State Government, buy a house and pay property taxes, they should be able to pay back the City in 5 years if they pay property taxes of about 17,000 a year, meaning their house would have to be valued at $17,000,000. I guess their salary at these jobs would have to be somewhere around $500, 000 per year? Am I doing the math right? Someone help me out here. How much do these jobs pay? And that is just the cost of the jobs program. How much more money is being spent on this handful of troublemakers with all of the other programs? At a certain point you have to realize they are beyond hope and put the money into jails and deport those that are deportable.

I don't know about you but I'm ready for a Mayor and City Council with some fiscal good sense, and a realization that providing jobs isn't the answer. 100 gang members, 10 jobs. Nothing stops a bullet like a job, right Das WIlliams?

"At its core, the new plan relies on one-on-one case management of gang members"

Isn't it illegal to participate in a street gang? If not it should be! We know exactly who they are, but we wait until they stab someone to do anything about it. Nothing is ever proactive or preventative. How about managing them while they do hard time CAM?

"Sanchez also warned gang members and affiliates who insisted on choosing violence that his officers would arrest them."

Tough talk! you mean he has to SAY that?

"While in cuffs, the young man told police that he’d changed and that he no longer was the same person his juvenile record might indicate. “The two officers said, ‘You spoke up and you spoke well. Have a good day, go on.’ That was huge.”

Yes he will arrest them , and immediately let them go if they have a good story. If they can't come up with one quick enough, they go to jail for a day only to soon be back on the streets because of overcrowded jails. 40 percent of inmates are gang members? Why no mention of the 12 percent that are illegal immigrants? (Apparently the ones that come to do jobs Americans won't do)

http://www.keyt.com/news/local/2815711.h...

Cam has stated publicly that he will quit if they make him enforce immigration laws.

Cam Sanchez is soft on crime when it comes to his "gente". If this problem is ever going to be solved it won't be by throwing more money at useless proven ineffective programs for the youth. It will only be solved when we elect a Mayor that will appoint a police chief that is interested in Law Enforcement, rather than youth counseling and gang coddling. Until then the electorate will become less and less powerful as they are taxed into oblivion, gangs will become more and more emboldened, until they will be running this City by intimidation of the citizens, politicians and police, much like is currently happening in the country where most of them have their roots and ties. Any guesses which country? Hint: It starts with the 13th letter of the alphabet - "eme"

Here is what is coming your way if you keep this up Chief Sanchez:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/...

"Long-Term Gang Response Unveiled"

How about a short term response such as a gang injunction and 287(g) agreement to enable local officers to cooperate with ICE and assist in immigration enforcement? What are we waiting for? Three murders and multiple stabbings of innocents isn't enough?

The failed Blum Administration policies have had their chance - spending tons of our money and effort with the result that "gang violence has shown little signs of abating". In the words of Obama "Enough is enough!" Impeach Blum!

Ashaw if SB had a gang injunction that would meen the see that SB has a gang problem. Wouldnt want that now would we? That would drive visitors away. Less gas tax less bar tax,less bed tax blah,blah, blah. But i will say i am with you on the injunction. We should also hold the mom's and dad's acountable for the lil'og's ways.

Is it just me or does Ashaw go off on a tangent and over post?

No it's not you InTHEKnow... Like this site is his personal blog or something.... whatever..... have at it Ashaw!

Why does this situation remind me of Iraq? Send more troops to the East and West Sides (The surge) or legitimize gangs, and especially gang elders by meeting with them, making deals with them, and bribing them with taxpayers money. How long will THIS war go on with innocent citizens caught in the middle?

I may overpost but I don't go off on tangents... most Santa Barbarans seem to be blind to the City blowing smoke up our you-know-what's or they wouldn't keep electing these liberal soft Silly Councilmembers. Good comment RunningCrew.

Sorry, I'm tired and hurt when my children look to me for protection when they feel unsafe when they walk the streets and go to school, and come home scared to tell me about it. I can't blame them a bit for not wanting to go to school. So I just have a lot to say about it. I could'nt look them in the eye if I didn't fight for their safety with everything I have, since the City and Police Chief are too cowardly to stand up to these punks and do their job.

If anyone wants to take over please do - everyone else is free to overpost as well, I just like to get the ball rolling - if I didn't, all I hear is silence and tolerance and acceptance and more of the same "nothing" from the "Leaders" that are more interested in their own public image and the City's image than they are about public safety.. I'm listening, please make your own comments heard.

Once again, another way to create jobs and spend tax dollars.
By the way Pappy, I agree with you. To wit: "To accomplish this goal, the new plan will likely require two gang intervention specialists to funnel gang members and their families to appropriate agencies for help and then track their progress." Sounds a bit Orwellian to me, now onto the what's happening.

We keep hearing over and over about how our *local* leaders are going to deal with this problem. This is a national problem. We have a de facto open border and a likewise de facto immigration policy where unscrupulous business owners and idealistic La Raza supporters and White liberals come together to support the continuation of this. The result is kids growing up without parents because Mom and Dad are working 12,14, however many hours per day and can't raise their kids so it's pointless to punish the parents--especially given the fact that for decades school teachers have had their hands tied and can't discipline rowdy kids.

It would be interesting to know what ties the people who are involved in this have to the two major political parties who clearly do not want to stop the endless flow of cheap labor into our area.

“It’s a great start,” proclaimed Santa Barbara Police Chief Cam Sanchez, who played a high-profile role in the development of the five-year plan. “Today is the first day of the beginning. It is not the answer. It is the first brick in the process.”

I'm confused...if Sanchez doesn't have the answer, why does he support spending all this money? How many bricks are involved in this "process"? What's the game plan? Could it be that this is just (like all the other brilliant gang intervention plans) another futile gesture by people too wrapped up in their idealism or vested interests to address the real problem.

Here's a clue for all these people, including the police chief, ask yourselves this question: "What were we doing differently as a society decades ago when we didn't have this problem?". You might find that the answer is rather obvious and uncomfortable. If nothing else, it's a good mental exercise.

Here's a clue for all these people, including the police chief, ask yourselves this question: "What were we doing differently as a society decades ago when we didn't have this problem?"

===============

Did we not have this problem, or just not talk about this problem? The murder rate in the US has been lower over the last few years than it was 30 years ago.

That said, we should fry the bastards.

Biting my tongue by popular demand...did we tolerate illegal immigration decades ago? I don't remember.

Would Sarah Palin have put up with this nonsense in Wasilla? Good point Pappy, how about a surge of Police Officers to the East and West side and be done with it. Whatever worked in Iraq, let's try it here. Talking and negotiating with Saddam Hussein for 11 years certainly did not. Sarah Palin for Mayor!

Biting my tongue by popular demand...did we tolerate illegal immigration decades ago? I don't remember.

==============

I thought were were talking about gang violence.

As far as illegal immigration, I guess the same question applies. Do we have a recent problem with illegal immigration? Or has it always been there, and only recently have we started to talk about it or care about it?

Illegal immigrants dont have to much to do with the gang problem in Santa Barbara. Not till MS-13 moves in. Right now its eastside and westside. A bunch of punk 11-15yr olds. Out of all the kids that have been detained how many we illegal? Lets not blame illegals for the lack of a middle class in SB. I have lived most of my life in SB and Santa Ynez. I see the up rise of housing cost without the increase of a living wage(different battle) less jobs and what not hurting more families then ever. 4yrs ago i was renting a room in sb for 785mo. I own a house in az now its 2200sq ft 3bd 4bath. its 18 mo old. My mortgage is 975mo. I rent it out for 1200mo. So how with the price of rent in SB. can families over see what all the kids do. Working 60+hrs a week to pay rent and put food on the table. Until the City Gov. stops trying to run the working class out of SB this will be a big problem in and around SB. The gangs are here to stay. When we do gang sweeps and lock up the OG's you leave no authority within the gang. All these little fights and then the killings would not happen if some authority was left in the gang. Now i'm not saying let them run wild but dont bust the 40yr old og's for lame stuff like pot and what not.

Kratatoa writes: "As far as illegal immigration, I guess the same question applies. Do we have a recent problem with illegal immigration? Or has it always been there, and only recently have we started to talk about it or care about it?"

It has always been there, but every indication is that this is the biggest single demographic increase.

805RunningCrew writes: "Illegal immigrants dont have to much to do with the gang problem in Santa Barbara. Not till MS-13 moves in. Right now its eastside and westside. A bunch of punk 11-15yr olds. Out of all the kids that have been detained how many we illegal?"

It may not be illegals themselves who participate in gangs on a large scale, but when you factor in the fact that the children of these people are growing up with parents who are not at home raising them because they are--as the open borders supporters say--keeping our economy going, (by working so many hours in the day they CAN'T be at home to raise the kids) of course they look to each other to be family. Also, many of the parents do not assimilate into the American culture so the kids grow up feeling as though they don't belong to either culture and again...they turn to each other as opposed to their parents. Add to this the fact that we have a situation where our leaders--especially our local leaders have the "It takes a village to raise a child" mentality and as such they thing that by throwing money at the problem they are going to solve it and clearly they are not solving it.

As for the rising house prices and the elimination of the middle class, when both political parties are either actively supporting the fact that businesses are hiring illegal immigrants because they don't want to tolerate uppity Americans demanding (gasp!) decent wages and safe/reasonable work conditions, this is an attack on the American middle-class way of life. Does Mexico have the labor laws we have?

Also, the sheer numbers of people living here will create a supply-and-demand increase in the price of housing.

Wouldn't it be nice if Mexico's government would look around the world and see what successful countries are doing and implement some of those ideas so that their people would actually want to stay there instead of constantly trying to get out?

I am convinced that many Progressives actually view gangs as their allies for "change." Congresswoman Maxine Waters infamously called the rioters in Los Angeles in 1992 "Our Warriors," and danced the Electric Slide with gang members. Progressives justify policies like affirmative action and bilingual education for Latinos by pointing out that the latter group now is, or soon will be a majority. Implicit in this argument is the threat of violent uprising by gangs if preferential hiring and college admission preferences are not granted as well as amnesty.

As a specific example, Art Torres, former chair of the California Democratic Party said

"Remember, Proposition 187 is the last gasp of White America in California."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Torr...

and regarding racial preferences

"I tell my White friends they'd better hold on to affirmative action because they're going to need it."

Kratatoa writes: "As far as illegal immigration, I guess the same question applies. Do we have a recent problem with illegal immigration? Or has it always been there, and only recently have we started to talk about it or care about it?"

It's always been here, but only with the rise of political correctness during the 70's did we stop enforcing it so that it has now gotten out of control. The INS threw up their hands and left town for good when the white liberals got up in arms when an INS agent called an illegal immigrant "Pedro" during a raid of a workplace. That was racial profiling I guess? I remember it well.

Actually immigration has increased sharply since the passing of NAFTA in 1992 when we forced Mexico to remove a portion of their constitution that they had fought for around 100 years ago. The new altered constitution allowed global corporations to come in and kick indigenous tribes and sustainable communities off of their land. These people were then forced to live on minimal wages or move to the city where work was already scarce. Poverty has nearly doubled in Mexico since the passing of NAFTA.

There was a violent uprising by the Zapatistas who attempted to restore their original constitution so that they could have their lands back. The US backed the Mexican Military who crushed the Zapatistas. This is what the United States refers to as "spreading democracy". It's really doublespeak for imperialism. If this immigration problem isn't our fault, then I don't know what is.

loonpt: Is this in reference to the elido (sp?) program? A friend of mine recently told me that way back when the Mexican government had a program of giving land to the indigent people and that with NAFTA that program was scrapped.

Revisionist makes a great post. The only thing I can add to it is that what these self-styled "progressives" need to understand is that the La Raza types with whom they ally themselves are laughing at them. They also need to know that they are helping the people who are the most vulnerable. (The people who are coming in here illegally and risking life and limb to do so)

It will be the same as chicanos are in denial and the government doesn´t address the true perpetrators and pussy foots around the issue. How many more kids must die until people say it like it is and get tough on the problem?

El_Informador writes: "How many more kids must die until people say it like it is and get tough on the problem?"

It depends on the color of their skin. As long as it's dark kids, nothing will be done. When White kids die then the good community leaders will realize it can happen to "us".

If anyone thinks I'm out of line, I would remind them of how the press went ballistic when a three-year old White girl was shot to death about ten years ago when her parents drove down an alley somewhere around L.A. This became known as the "wrong way shooting".

Eventually however, society will probably become desensitized to that as well. Either way, people are dying while they keep supporting the political status quo.

Poverty has nearly doubled in Mexico since the passing of NAFTA.

==============

A quick google search reveals that poverty is actually lower in Mexico now than before NAFTA was implemented.

http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL...

So, are you still sure there's more illegal immigration now than, say, 20 years ago?

Yes, of course poverty is lower in Mexico - because they are exporting it all to the US! Which should answer your second question, Kratatoa.

AShaw: Look at it this way -- you'll be dead someday and the "problem" will be someone else's to deal with. Namely, those of us who are younger and actually have learned to live with our neighbors of Latin American ancestry instead of blaming them for nearly every problem under the sun. By the way, I hear that the Irish put whiskey in their babies' bottles -- can you believe THAT lack of parenting skill!? Thought you'd like to know...

It must be so sad to be living in the past, when "things" were so much "better" and more "well run." Of course, living in the past and pontificating from one's sofa probably beats the hell out of actually doing something constructive to address real problems. Good day.

Nobody wants to face the issues and problems. I´ve had my comments here deleted. Some of us know culture and people and can contribute to improving the situation but others have their own agenda and want to name call and try to be PC and ignore the true facts of the matter.

Parents need to be held accountable for the actions of their kids. Many of the parents come from rural and violent upbringings and have taught those ways to their kids. The fact is that the vast majority are Mexican. If this were Appalachia then the demographics would be different but we need to address the problem and the people who comprise it.

The funny part is that even though these gang bangers are of Mexican descent, they really are chicanos which are americanized Mexicans. Real Mexicans don´t act and dress like they do. It is a learned behavior from living in the US. It is a subculture with heavy pressure to fit in. Mexico has alot of wealth and the kids there for the most part are respectful, save for the poor, rural areas.

El_Informador hits it on the head when he (I'm assuming by the screen name it's a man) points out that the gang behavior is a learned thing that happens is America. This became obvious to me when I went to Santa Barbara High School back in the 70's.

Allegro805: In re-reading AShaw's comments I fail to see where he/she is blaming them for nearly every problem under the sun--as you say.

AShaw is addressing (as El_Informador is) America's insane immigration policy which goes beyond the simple double-talking politicians who babble about "rule of law" and coming in "legally" while doing nothing to actually stop the problem, but who are complicit in creating an economy which exploits people and undoes the progress this country made long ago in the area of labor laws.

You point out how you are younger than AShaw (Who from what I deduce, is in his/her late 40's) and perhaps that is key to the argument. I may well have it all wrong, but if you--like many in S.B., are a recent college graduate, then I respectfully submit that you may have been exposed to much left-wing indoctrination in one of our local institutes of learning and when all you hear is one point of view, you tend to not see the whole picture. On the other hand, I reject the right-winger's suggestion that we go after the parents of these kids because having first-hand up-and-close dealing with this situation I can tell you that most of them are people who are just trying to survive and so busy working they can't be there for their kids.

Who I blame/scapegoat/demonize is the U.S. government as well as misguided people who actually think agencies, schools, and Boys/Girls Clubs can be an adequate substitute for parents. Kids need a combination of love and discipline that these entities cannot provide.

Do I think the Mayor and Police Chief are complicit in this problem?...of course I do. By refusing to attack the root causes of this problem they are enabling it. Whether they are simply idealistic or worried they might be called racist or sellout, or even more--the possiblity that they don't care and are simply going along with what is politically convenient, they--like almost every other politician on the local, state, and national level, are part of the problem.

Also: If this gang problem is being overblown and people are using it to scapegoat those of Mexican/Latin/Hispanic descent, then we should call upon the city of Santa Barbara to withdraw this latest plan to deal with our gang problem. After all, we could save a lot of money by doing so.

Yes, of course poverty is lower in Mexico - because they are exporting it all to the US! Which should answer your second question, Kratatoa.

===============

Then wouldn't this mean that illegal immigration to the US should be slowing down?

"have learned to live with our neighbors of Latin American ancestry"
Allegro, I live AND work AND party with people of Latin American descent living here legally.

I repeat and repeat in all of my posts that race is not the issue! I don't know what it is about people that can't differentiate illegal immigrants from those of Latin american descent, but they must be the true racists, since they can't see the difference. What is it about illegal immigrant and hispanic or latino that people equate? I am not the one doing the equating! I reject any attempt at applying the term racist to someone who believes in orderly, legal immigration. It this very intimidation tactic that has allowed us to get into the problem we are now in.

Why is it fair to LEGAL immigrants from say, China, for those from Mexico to cut in line, be catered to in their own language, not encouraged to assimilate, etc etc? Why is that fair and moral?

What is it about the difference between legal and illegal immigrant that you don't understand? What is it about the difference between hispanic, latino, those of Latin ancestry and illegal immigrant that you don't understand? There are illegal immigrants from Asia as well. Until we can stop making charges of racism to those who think things should be orderly and legal, lawlessness, disrespect for the law and authority and ultimately anarchy, will prevail.

Bill thanks for being accurate and rational, as always and for your defense.

Kratatoa - actually illegal immigration IS slowing down because of our declining economy. I have read that about a million illegals have opted for self deportation, due to the inability to find jobs. Out of twenty million it's a start.

Believe it or not, I have no problem with work visas and being here if you actually have work,at least we know who they are and the criminals don't get through - that is what ORDERLY immigration is. The work visa thing needs to be enforced and not abused. No job, go back home. No job, stay home.

Anyone else call me a racist if you wish, but you will have to redefine racism. It used to be applied to lynch mobs and those that would drag a person behind a truck. I am a believer in law and going through the system, not anarchy and vigilante justice. Watering down the meaning of the term doesn't help anyone.

We need Efren Renoso to solve the gang problem!

ashaw you wouldnt know the first thing about helping someone you dont know. mybe because you dont know the first thing about the street life.you will never undersand becuase you grew up a lil different. you dont know the disconnection these kids feel . you dont know the hate and anger these kids have. do you know what its like to grow up with nothing. do you know what its like to be singled out by police because of your color. racial profiling will never stop, so these kids will never stop feeling anger towards the cops and the community,yeterday i saw a man running out of a store one cop jumed out of his car and within the time the cop slammed him on the floor there was 5 cop cars on the sence. What are you so scared of? as long as mexican are killing mexicans we will always have people like you who think these kids dont have a chance to become something great.people like you who tell them there gonna go to prison or gunna die. who are you to say we dont need this collaberation inthe schools. these kids need something posative in their life, who are you to say these kids dont deserve that. do you know ROSS CASTRO? if you dont i suggest you look into it. the last time santa barbara had a gang problem we started all these programs and nearly eradicated gangs itself from santa barbara after everything cools down all the funding runs out and nobody cares anymore until it starts happening agian. But obviously it works. so keep giving your tax dollars and go volunteer some of your time to one of these youth that are screaming out for your help or donate some money.ps those ten kids that got jobs were all made available by those 6 non profit organizations connections. there was no help or money for the caseworker to help teens find jobs, were's your money? check out HOMIES TURF TO SURF TODAY AT 4 ON ESPN SUPPORT THE HOMIES check out something knew any one wanna get hooked up hit me up

There's an old saying - excuses are like a..holes - everybody has one. Because the Police are doing their damndest to try to enforce the law and keep the streets safe is supposed to be an excuse to kill one of their own? It's an excuse to be a hater and hate the Police and each other? Did you hang around to see why the "man" was running out of the store? I'm tired of excuses I'm tired of anytime a Mexican acts up the Police are accused of profiling. I have a solution, don't act up, obey the law and the Police will leave you alone! Guaranteed! Here's an idea - I'm broke from paying taxes and trying to survive around here how about all us taxpayers just leave town, no tourists come to pay the bed taxes because of all this hispanic crime then what ? How about the hispanic community takes responsibility for the actions of their own instead of playing the blame game? It's always someone else's fault isn't it, that's the message we send to the youth here. They feel justified because of the things people like you keep telling them and the excuses you give them HOODWORKER. Why should they change?

I agree with all the points AShaw makes but I disagree with one: That the cops will leave you alone.

I'm White and and 47 years old with no criminal history. I don't drink so I don't hang out in bars or nightclubs but since I work late at night I can attest to having been pulled over for no reason on several occasions. There ARE gung ho cops out there looking for any reason to start trouble.

The problem is when you have a combination of some bad cops who are unlikely to be rooted out by the ones who don't hassle people because of the unwritten loyalty code combined with so-called "Hispanic leaders" who are more interested in perpetuating the status quo of victimhood then addressing underlying issues already discussed in these blogs.

In short, it's a case by case situation, and at the risk of sounding cliche, one has to take each situation on its own merits and realize that sometimes both sides are wrong.

I also remember a few years back an interview with a person that probably nobody in this blog would be familiar with--a man named Richard Boddie. Boddie was the Libertarian candidate for the Californian gubernatorial race. As I recall, the interview I heard happen back around 1996.

The Libertarians are the ultimate "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" political party. I'm not here to say whether they are good or bad, but merely setting the stage.

Anyway, Boddie is Black and mentioned very matter-of-factly that he frequently got pulled over for D.W.B. (Driving While Black). My point is, this man was an ultraconservative who was saying this.

The problem that I've seen with police/sheriffs is that while most of them are not out to make like unpleasant for the average person, there doesn't seem to be a willingness to stand up and root out the bad ones that do.

On the other hand, the La Raza cheerleaders are loath to distance themselves from those things that keep--for lack of a better way of expressing it--"Their people" down, including the fact that much of the attire of young Mexican men emulate gang attire.

If both sides would remain vigilant, while cleaning their own houses, much pain and suffering could be prevented.

Based on this White guy's experience and observations, I have no reason to doubt that Mexicans are routinely harassed by cops.

Perhaps you are right, but a certain amount of mild "harrassment" should be tolerated in the interest of getting the job done. I can imagine that just being questioned or detained now falls into the category of "harrassment" and racial profiling if the detainee is of a non-white persuasion. There is a reason for that - and the reason is that for the most part the crimes are not being committed by whites. For that reason a certain amount of what might be called profiling is reasonable and expected, just like the likelihood of a white toothless drunk might be "profiled" for vagrancy. If you are innocent what is the harm in a little reasonable hassle in exchange overall public safety and perhaps saving lives of hispanic teens? I will change my statement to : If you are innocent and don't act up and are respectful, the cops might hassle you a little but they won't put you in handcuffs! It's worth the sacrifice if it saves the life of one of your brothers. What is more important? A life or freedom from hassle? There has to be a tradeoff.

The only reason why cops should interact with anyone is for the securing of evidence. If the Rule Of Law is ignored, then cops start setting their own limits for what they can do and then you have chaos.

I still feel that unless the masses understand the correlation between our immigration policy (and I'm not just referring to the open border, but specifically the idea that Mexican immigrants are for the most part expendable cogs in the cheap labor marked) and the multitude of social problems affecting the Mexican demographic in the U.S., then all these other "get tough" approaches are only going to alienate people and encroach on civil rights.

What I'm saying will piss off the Right-wing authoritarian types one end, and the La Raza/self-loathing White liberals on the other end because I'm opposing racial profiling on one hand yet calling for an end to keeping the door open and letting anyone into the U.S. who wants to come in here. That having been said, I remember the same basic conversations taking place decades ago but not one bit of change in government policy and here we are with the gang problem growing and growing and growing.

The very fact that we use the euphamism "At-risk youth" to describe gang members in training says a lot.

I feel your frustration, but a look at our immigration policy--supported by president Bush and members of both parties, will reveal why people on both sides of this issue are so angry.

It's not a Mexican/White problem, it's a Washington D.C. problem and if America could wake up from it's coma long enough to smell the coffee maybe they would get a clue and put the pressure on leaders from the bottom up to actually do the right thing instead of dividing people.

Check out

http://www.independent.com/news/2008/may...