Arrests Made in 4th of July Homicide

"We were on it" seems questionable, since anyone who knows these wanna bees all dress alike, walk in groups, don't smile, mad-dog everyone and the police don't notice? Unacceptable.. Is Sanchez saying his men didn't see these people? It's not like these posers are hiding, their MO is to stay in groups, talk smack with their homeys, otherwise they would get their you know what's handed to them one one one. So the police department who apparently has been trained to know everything about wanna bees, lets a group walk around dressed and posing to intimidate and harass our citizens get away with it is "on it"?

Pardon me, but "on it" would be acting proactively. Anyone dressed like a wanna be in their colors, walking in groups, posing intimidation and harassment, verbally or non-verbally should have been stopped, questioned, etc. That to me would be "on it". Get out of your sedans and get serious Santa Barbara PD.

I along with my 3 children attended the Firework show on July 4. I will say that after 10 years of making this event a tradition it will be our last time. We were surrounded by illegal fireworks being lit, alcohol openly being used. We were suspicious that something of a serious nature had occurred.
The show was delayed and then interrupted for 15 minutes before coming to an end. We were all glad once it was over and we were back in our car.
The crowd was unruly, teens and adults with gang attire were the majority seen. And now three stabbed and one 15 year dead. This is Santa Barbara? Please Mayor Marty Blum, Council members and please Police Chief Cam Sanchez control the gangs in Santa Babara. Make this your priority. I would like to stay here and raise my children but if this continues there will continue to be a migration out of this city to safer communities.
JJB.

My son and I were down there last night and although we were only about half a block away from the action, we didn't hear anything about it. The show went on...

As much as I love fireworks and 4th of July is one of my MOST favorite holidays, I am disturbed how often the "show goes on" in this town. We have a serious gang problem and yes, it is in the public light now after those stupid teens had their fight downtown last year. They are stabbing each other left and right and for what? There is no sense to it! I grew up here and never felt that this was a dangerous town and would think that these stupid kids should feel priveledged to be here. Unfortunately that is not the case and they find enjoyment in killing each other over territory. It's insane! Something needs to be done, if they dress like gang members they should be locked up. If they don't want to be incarcerated they should quit acting like idiots and work on having some type of future. There is so much opportunity for these idiots and they don't even care.

I was at the 4th of July fireworks show with my family and we knew that something went wrong when the firefighters, ambulance, and police sirens were everywhere. There were too many gang appearing people there, it seemed like from their clothes and language and behavior. I love to see the fireworks all the time but this one was a disappointment. Now, i am worried about going to the fireworks next year. Also, I am worried about going SBJH where some of these gangs go to school! Please mayor and other officials make this city safer so we don't have to be in fear. :)
~Nikki B.(7th grader)

Our family was down at west beach watching the fireworks and we got up to leave after the "pause"....we had no idea there was a stabbing, and that this was the reason for the "pause" in the fireworks show. This is the LAST year we will come to watch the fireworks. I will not subject my kids to the gang activity and potential danger. This is ridiculous. We saw a ton of policeman patrolling the area......where were they when this happened? This was entirely preventable and negligent on the part of the very people who are supposed to protect us. I can't tell you how many low-life, unsavory people were milling around this area last night. Where the heck do they come from? And this is supposed to be Santa Barbara: Utopia. WHAT am I supposed to tell my kids about this - that this is a way of life? What a waste of time. Santa Barbara has their priorities screwed up. Quit inviting in every single tourist, pay more attention to potential serious criminal activities (instead of doling out tickets to people who use their cell phone while driving) and clean up this city. This is unexcusable. Too many people were endangered last night, all because of some ignorant punks who decided to start a brawl. What a complete waste.

This is the bargain that we have made. We will look the other way while we employ illegal immigrants, then act shocked, shocked, when their children don't obey the law.

These problems are our own making.

This is all to easy to solve. New Mayor that cares more about the city than her Green Image at the Convention of Mayors. A new Police Chief who is not afraid of offending his "people" by getting tough on illegal immigration. New City Council members who care more about protecting the teenagers than entertaining them, and enact ICE 287(g) so our police officer's hands are not tied when it comes to enforcing immigration laws so we no longer have illegal immigrants that are too busy working two jobs while their sons join gangs and their teen daughters are getting pregnant.
They come here to commit crimes Americans will not commit?
Does saying this make me a racist? Don't even try it. - I am realist and a nationalist. Legal Hispanic or Latino law abiding citizens are welcome here and always have been for decades before this gang issue became deadly. We now have progressed from knives to guns under the leadership of this administration. The ones that do not obey the law tarnish the good reputation of their race. Coming here illegally in the first place is a broken law. If we don't enforce the law, how can it be respected? No more touchy-feely feel good "reachout-to-the-at risk-youth" programs that are missing the target!
No more negotiating with gangs and truce picnics in the park.
The latest anti-gang liberal progressive group to "reach out" to the City coffers is called "Healing Soul of America" for God's sake (see headline this site)

http://www.independent.com/news/2008/jul...
/new-anti-gang-effort-makes-debut/

TAKE THIS SERIOUSLY FOR ONCE CITY LEADERS and get tough or get out! How many more must die because you are afraid to be tough on immigration? Enough of the political cowardice that has pervaded the politically correct liberal government. Is it worth the life of a teenager to avoid offending those who steal their way into the country? I am not talking about a race I am talking about citizens of another nation. These are not freckly faced strawberry haired teenagers if nobody has yet noticed. Are we or are we not in the United States of America regardless of our race??

We have an ex-schoolteacher naive Mayor who thinks she can tell the teens that this behaviour is "not OK" (her words) and that will make them think twice. What schoolyard is she running here?

I'm not worried at all, according to the article below, all our gang problems may soon be a thing of the past. All we need to do is throw some money at the problem and it will just go away. (Oh wait, haven't we heard this before?)

http://www.independent.com/news/2008/jul...

If gang violence wasn't an epidemic problem before--and I think we would agree it wasn't--all we need to do is ask ourselves what we were doing as a society back in the days when it wasn't a problem.

You can bet the politically correct crowd who dominates S.B.'s and California's political landscape (endlessly reelected by their naive constituents) won't touch this with a ten-foot pole. Add to this the Big Business interests (again supported by the voters) and no wonder this problem takes over--block by block.

Yeah, after-school problems sure have done a great job at solving this problem haven't they? All the politicians who are causing this must be removed from office. Come to think of it, there's an election coming up, and we do have the power of recall...just ask Gray Davis.

I meant to say "after-school programs" maybe it was a Freudian slip?

Once again, great job Indy on getting the story first. Not a mention of this incident at the NP website...

It's no surprise that kids get involved in violent activities when our culture glorifies violence as a quick way to "greatness" or fame, violent video games like Cop Killer and Grand Theft Auto train people to maim and kill, and there is a lack of parental guidance at home - the result of working long hours to make a living in SB and/or the effect of a cross-cultural disconnect between 1st generation immigrants and their 2nd generation children.

The great economic disparity between the haves and have-nots is another great source of stress and tension in Santa Barbara. Many migrant families live in barely-tolerable, overcrowded conditions, 20 or more to a 3 bedroom house. How can children develop a sense of self-worth when they're coming home to a place where they must sleep in shifts with their housemates?

For many of these families, the basic need of shelter is just barely being met. That's why so many young people end up running around on the streets getting into trouble. There's no space for them at home.

We could address this issue by enforcing limits on the number of people who can inhabit a certain square footage house. I assume that fire codes already have established these limits, but they are not enforced in private homes. Families that cannot provide a suitable home for their children in Santa Barbara will have to move somewhere they can afford to pay rent for an adequate space. Let's get serious about enforcing the laws that are already on the books.

For billclausen - After-school programs DO work by keeping kids occupied with positive activities like sports, the arts, field trips, and more. These kinds of activities help young people develop a sense of self-worth, good character, new skills, and positive relationships with their peers and role-models.

Engaging educational programs - in addition to a space of one's own - are two essential ingredients needed for the healthy development of young people.

Neither of these is a guaranteed fix without at least one supportive parent at home...Anyone having kids before age 21 should be required to attend parenting classes. Otherwise, we have kids raising kids, and that's another source of our current problems.

There are organizations and individuals working to provide these services already (parenting classes, summer and after-school programs) who do an excellent job. United Way, Healthy Start, After-School Opportunities for Kids, PAL, Dancing Drum, City At Peace, and numerous others have been in the trenches with this population longer than most Santa Barbarians suspected trouble in paradise. Guarantee these functioning organizations the support they need to grow more effective, instead of expecting them to rely on questionable grant funding year after year.

Ah, these are the good old days! Wait till the Asian bankers dump our preposterous IOU's on the international currency market, and the US dollar comes down like the WTC towers. Massive unemployment and hyper-inflation might have YOU thinking criminal thoughts, but too late - today's criminals have already refined their techniques on the streets and behind bars. There truly is a corpus of criminal street smarts that would bewilder most of us. HOWEVER, los pinches pandilleros (gang-affiliated gentlemen) tend to be truly lousy marksmen. Prepare as you see fit, but do learn to distinguish real threats from imagined ones. Gracias.

"Families that cannot provide a suitable home for their children in Santa Barbara will have to move somewhere"

Your list of tired, liberal "solutions" are as weak an ineffective as this one. Do you really think moving them to Lompoc "solves" the problem?

Deporting them, might.

Hold on.

There is nothing fundamentally different between a Mexican teen and a Caucasian, Black, Asian, etc. teen. These racist comments need to stop. It's disgusting to read that some people believe our gang issues would be resolved by simply deporting a race of people. First of all, not going to happen. So stop spewing your racist diatrabe and get practical. Secondly, who cleans our streets? Who picks your produce? Who cooks your restaurant dinner? Who drives our buses? Latinos are assiduous, diligent workers who deserve recognition for the many ways they support and sustain our economy. Republicans, listen, it's the free trade policies and neoliberalization paradigms that we exported to Mexico which are now driving Mexican people out of their own country. Think about it. Just try. Lastly, this issue is not the sole fault of the police, or the parents, or the schools. It is a systemic issue. We do not allow hard-working, blue-collar parents enough time with their children. Ask any of these gang members how much time they've spent with their parents in the last week. When their last "family game night" was. Simply ask why they weren't attending this 4th of July spectacle with their families and neighbors? I want to strongly emphasize that this issue of gang violence is the fault of the child/teenager least of all. We are failing our children by denying them the opportunity to grow up in a supportive, stable, loving environment.

What makes this whole situation that much more disgusting is the fact that this IS Santa Barbara-- one of the wealthiest cities in the nation--and we have now, on several occasions, seen young residents murdered on our streets as a result of gang affiliation and hostility. This town can afford to wine-and-cheese itself every night of the week but it won't seriously address the issues of gang violence. Let's install another fountain. Hold another art exhibit. Rip out the concrete sidewalks and install cutsey brick ones instead. Meanwhile, the town and its citizenry turns another blind eye to the murders being committed on its streets. Why? Because the victims are low-income Latinos. Would we respond with the same seeming indifference, or even hostility, if it was a rich white Westmont kid engaging in violence and/or falling victim to it? I wonder. We blame the Mexicans for the dire straits and squalor that they live in, all while they support our economy, and then threaten them with deportation at every wrong turn.

Enough with the racist polemics, the easy solutions, the accusations that only divide us. We need to take a look at how we invest in our children, regardless of their race, ethnicity, socio-economic background, etc. We need to give them support, we need to give their parents support. As a united community we need to raise our children up together and discourage the petty hate that perpetuates gang violence by firstly acknowledging that our own hostility and indifference will not remedy the situation.

It is funny how the police catch the suspects in less then 24 hours (a great feat) and there is only disdain and anger towards them by some on this board.

To the first couple of posters who said they wanted the police to get rid of the gang members when they saw them just walking around dressed like they were.... isn't that profiling and illegal to do?

What you would like the police to do is illegal based on our Constitution, 4th Amendment. The little wanna-be punks need to actually commit a crime before the police can arrest them or detain them.

Lauren, do you have kids and what neighborhood do you live in? I was a statistic, a mother at 17 and a single mother at that. I went to apply for welfare out of desperation. I was the only white face in the place and they turned me down because I had a car (a piece of junk that didn't even work at the time) and wanted to work hard to turn my life around. I told them I only needed it for a year while I attended some type of training program so I could get a job. I came from a poor family, had NO means of support and was still turned down and given NO help, not even medical or food stamps! Why is that?

Not only does our government funding (OUR taxes) go mainly to these immigrants (many ARE illegal but their kids are citizens so that makes them eligible for help)! I ended up breaking my back & spirit by working 80 hours a week while trying to raise my son. In the meantime my tax dollars supported these folks that aren't here legally and are allowed to stay here because they have American born children. I'm not a racist person but I have issues with the government providing more help to illegal immigrants while someone like me just needed a little help. I felt discriminated against because I was white! My son attended schools where the population was over 80% Hispanic and those kids had stay at home moms and new clothes & plenty of toys while my son had so much less. I watched a group of them save up their money and actually have enough to put a down payment on a house, from our taxes! The system IS broken and it IS biased...

There are way more resources given to those families than there are to natives. You can't say that race is not an issue because it truly is. They get the mentality of it's "them" against "us" and it is so frustrating when "they" are the ones with more advantages created by our governments. Is it because there are so many migrant workers and illegals willing to work hard to stay here? Yes, they boost the local economy and that makes lots of people look the other way. In turn, it takes food from the mouths of nationals...

Yes, some of these families are very hard workers and they try hard to work for the "American Dream". In doing so, they have children, like my son, who are not 100% supervised after school. There are great programs for elementary school aged kids. Junior High kids ARE where this problem is starting and by High School these kids have bonded with their gangs and at that point the parents have had no supervision for a few years. I watched one day while an officer tried to talk to a gang member who lives across the street from me. The youth was hostile and cursing at the cop while his parents stood on the porch & watched, saying nothing. I know that they speak English and I was appalled that they didn't even try to tell their son to have some respect or to be quiet. They did nothing, just like so many of these other parents... what kind of support do you propose that we give to parents like that?

InTheKnow, before Fiesta last year the police had talks with all known gang members about how they were NOT allowed to go downtown. Was that profiling and illegal? No, it was preventative. Had they done that again before July 4th, would it have helped? Who knows! However, had they been down there to observe the 20 some odd kids fighting and detained them at that point, could it have prevented a kid from being stabbed to death? Most likely. Could it have protected innocent civilians (including young children) from being exposed to their senseless violence? Possibly. In the course of my journey to the beach I only saw 2 cops and maybe that was because they were investigating the incident, even though I did get down there before it occurred.

I'm thrilled that they made so many arrests and so soon, especially that they got the alleged stabber. I just wish that it had been prevented. Yes, many of us down there had no idea that this was going on and I'm glad for that because it would have made so many of us feel unsafe. Hard to imagine feeling unsafe while celebrating the Independence of OUR country... but still.

Had the cops shook down any kid that was dressed in gang attire they may have found the weapons that these kids carry and been able to arrest them or remove them, thereby preventing this tragedy. Is that discrimination? No way! Kids who aren't gang members DON'T dress like gang members.

Fiesta last year was free from gang fights downtown. Yes, there was an incident where police shot and killed a man downtown but it turned out to have nothing to do with gangs. The police have shown that they have some ability to prevent issues from arising with these stupid kids and because of that, we should demand that they safeguard every city event as they did with Fiesta last year. Regardless of whether or not there is a fire. If they lacked the policing ability that our city required to keep us safe on July 4th, they should have cancelled the fireworks and let the tourists cry about it. Us locals love the fireworks too but would have understood. We were assured that the police presence would be strong, and supposedly it was, but were they even local cops who knew how to recognize our local gang members? I read somewhere that a lot of the police presence were officers from other cities, here to help out. I don't know if they were the majority that were posted by the beach or on the roadblocks for the fires but I feel like our local government did not protect us well enough. Fortunately the gang members seem to kill each other and not innocent bystanders. Is that what it will take to enrage everyone?

The key to the problems of gangs is parenting, education, culture, the need to belong and the environment. All have to be approached in order to resolve the need of children to feel as if their life has some meaning.
This is not, necessarily, an easy task and blaming people just makes it worse.
I wrote a grant years ago about juvenile behavior in Santa Barbara and how to begin a resolution and it was turned down as unnecessary by many different agencies.
So don't blame the police or City Hall for everything.

Santabarbarasand, thank you for thoughtfully expressing your disagreement. Achieving a civil dialogue is so much more worthwhile and effective than hurling insults and in this regard I commend and thank you. : )

Now, please allow me to politely explain my position. I fully agree that the system leaves certain people disadvantaged and I'm sorry that your experience was/is so exasperating. You and your family deserve far more support than you were given. However, the simple point I'm trying to make is that 1) we need to stop the us vs. them mentality, based on ethnicity, skin color, heritage, etc. It's divisive and destructive. 2) The nature of this divide (Latinos vs. Other) produces inequalities that are wholly unfair to people on both sides. On one hand, we have Latino parents who work hard, spend little time with their children, and then remain marginalized by the larger society and suffer constant castigation with threats of deportation. Then, in some pale attempt to remedy this, the ultra-PC crowd will do everything to avoid stepping on the toes of racial sensitivity and in doing so short-change the rest of the struggling working poor and/or hesitate to get "tough" on gang violence (ie. some have suggested this Latino police chief is being soft on gang crime). Lesson learned? The politics and prejudices that promote racial division are wholly damaging to the fiber of our entire community.

The incident that you describe with the teen being disrespectful to the cop is despicable and the parents' behavior is even worse. They should set a respectful example. However, let's try to understand a little of their perspective. I'm not endorsing their behavior, they were poorly mannered and I'm not championing it by any means, don't get me wrong, I'm just trying to see things from the other side, and employ a little empathy. That's what we need here. Also, I know enough rude, disrespectful white people and plenty of civil, amenable Latinos to disprove any stereotype that tries to base itself on ethnicity.

We need not reduce ourselves to criticisms based on race. I agree that our system is flawed. That's precisely the point I was trying to make. You and your son deserve every opportunity to live a full, content life. So do the Latinos.

One possible solution involves putting some teeth into the immigration laws. Obviously, anyone who is here illegally and involved in any criminal activity should be deported. But perhaps immigration should stipulate that anyone who becomes a citizen, and is involved with any criminal activity, including being a gang member, should have their citizenship revoked, and face deportation back to their country of origin.

There are plenty of immigrants from all over the world who are living in our communities, and they are grateful to be here, they are hard working members of our society, and are raising decent families who demonstrate respect, dignity, and tolerance to other people. These majority of immigrants help make America the great country it is. Those few who think they can control people by resorting to fear, threats and violence as part of the gang mentality...should be forced go back to where they came from. And if they are born here... our taxes are used to house them in a penal institution.

TO In the Know: perhaps there would be less "disdain" for this City's leadership had the murder actually been PREVENTED and the would-be-assailants INTERCEPTED and DETAINED PRIOR TO THE MURDER---as Chief Sanchez boasts about the post-murder arrests---one wonders how the obvious confrontation was allowed to occur in the first place. Shame on this City.

Can our Mayor and Police Chief NOW ADMIT we need a GANG INJUNCTION???? The Fireworks Event never should have occurred---with the diminshed resources countywide, potential for power outages, and all-around STRESS in the air caused by the fires, many of us were incredulous that the City would invite this crowd control challenge. So, no surprises. Just sadness on the part of many who see our city slipping away.

SantaBarbarasand,
I find it hard to comment on your post, you seem to contradict yourself. You praise the police in one sentence (about the previous Fiesta) and then blast them in the next. It seems that you expect perfection without accepting reality. They can not be everywhere at once. How many fights did they prevent on the 4th? I’m willing to guess several by their walking around. According to the article there were 80 cops out, I saw a lot too when I was down there with my family. The two you saw might have been because you were in a better area then I was with my family… who knows? I believe the police do an outstanding job here and get very little credit from people.

I also believe that expecting the police to prevent every crime is a little bit ignorant and fairytale like. What you profess them to do is the same thing you read other police departments in other cities get sued for. What if your child was wearing a long t-shirt and baggie pants (gang attire) and the cops stopped him just based on how he looked? The ACLU would be screaming racial profiling in a heartbeat, but yet you profess that as a way for the cops to prevent these crimes and in reality it is not so easy or LEGAL!

Oh and by the way, a lot of kids dress like “gang members” who are not in a gang. Kind of like when people use to wear leg warmers and were not dancers or people wore one glove (like Michael Jackson) but were not a singer. Kids mimic the “in thing” and now for kids it is to dress that way. One only has to go to a local high school and see for them self. My wife is a teacher, I’ve seen it myself.

A lot of your argument is based on the ability to hindsight and Monday morning quarterbacking. That is unfortunate when you let that guide your opinion.

InTheKnow, my inconsistancies have to do with the situation itself. Cops DID do a lot of work ahead of time last year before Fiesta and it paid off. This year, we have a fire and maybe they had plans to do preventative work but maybe not. There were no reports this year of how they were working to make sure that the celebrations were safe. There WERE reports however of there being a great deal of out of town cops in town during the events. Were they the ones at the beach? Were they familiar with known gang members? Were they familiar with the layout down town? Who knows!

My location was half a block from the stabbings... just like the majority of the rest of the town. Lots of us were commenting on there being a shortage of cops. Perhaps that is because they were dealing with the stabbing, but we were there BEFORE the incident occurred. Usually the police presence is very high along the entire stretch down there. It gave a feeling of insecurity.

I know a lot of hispanic young men who are not in gangs and know that if they dress like a gang member that they are opening themselves up to being attacked by gangs. I also have a teenager who IS "in the know" and says that "if they look like a gang banger mom, they are". I think that I trust his opinion more than yours... what does your wife being a teacher have to do with your ability to recognize & identify if a kid is a gang banger or wanna be gang banger?

Hindsight is the issue right now. I wanted to see the fireworks, thought it would provide a good diversion for everyone after having so much stress this week with the fire. Thought it would be a community opportunity to go sit together and feel a sense of belonging and pride that we live in a country that allows us freedom. Hindsight makes me wish that the fireworks had been cancelled even though it would have caused an uproar. That very freedom that I treasure is part of what allows these kids the freedom to have knives on them. I find NO violation of their rights if the police were to frisk all kids who dress & act like gang members. If they don't like it and their parents are upset then they need to buy them new clothes. The youth that are committing these crimes are the ones responsible for the bias, not us law abiding citizens. Quit being so tolerant, that is part of the problem!

Lauren, I agree with you on many of your points. I have a lot of empathy and a love for the Mexican culture here in our city. I grew up here and always enjoyed learning about the culture and many of my best childhood friends probably had parents that were illegal. I recall those parents as being very kind and hard working. I do not have a bias against Mexican people in general, how can you having grown up here?

Being a hard working, single mother in this town means that although I am successful enough to rent a house for my son & I to share, it is not in a desireable neighborhood. When I moved here we were the only non-hispanic family on the street and certainly had the least amount of people living in one home. We were stared at a lot when we first moved here and I didn't feel very safe. Over the years we have made friends with a couple sets of neighbors but unfortunately with 2 houses across the street from us that contain gang members and rowdy people, there aren't many adults willing to hang out in front of their houses. When fights break out or mariachi music is still being blasted at 1am and I call the police, they are afraid to get out of their cars. It's frustrating because I have a gem of a house on a lousy street and I can't afford to move to a better neighborhood.

I agree with you that we need to be tougher on crime, all crime, regardless of the race of the people committing the crimes. Unfortunately most gang members are hispanic, not just here but in many other cities as well. To go after them does look like an attack on their race to many. It's not racial bias, it's gang member bias. There is a HUGE difference and we need people in our city government who are capable of telling the difference and helping the citizens understand the difference.

Arepe, I like your suggestions! :)

I am not tolerant; I am intelligent and understand the capabilities of the police. I hate these gangs as much as anyone, probably more. What I find hard to swallow is ignorance. You profess that the cops can frisk everyone based on what they look like, they can't. THAT IS ILLEGAL… let me repeat that THAT IS ILLEGAL. You need to change the LAW and not what the cops do then if that is your point. Don’t blame the cops for not doing something that they can not legally do. Educate yourself on the law and not what you think they can do based on the movies or TV.

And the out of town cops are always here during big events. Why??? Because we get out of town gang members too. Look at most of the arrests or big events form the past. The people responsible are out of town bangers who come and stir up trouble. The police have help from those agencies who know those kids. Your complaint that they don’t “know the local gang members” seems to contradict your statement (based on your child) that every person that dresses like a gang member is one. Then with that logic can’t a cop from everywhere just look at a kid and based on what he is wearing tell if he is a gang member? Hmm your logic and discord seems to contradict itself.

And my wife being a teacher means that I would think she knows a lot more then you child, sorry that is the real world and I choose to trust that more than you. She constantly tells me stories about good kids and bad kids. I’ve met a lot of her students; I can see what she means. There are bad kids that don’t dress like gang bangers; I guess your ILLEGAL theory to frisk everyone would be foiled then. Then what next would you criticize the police for not catching the kid in a collared shirt that exactly fit him?

I agree with some of what you say (about social responsibilities of the parents), the point I disagree with is when you think the police can do something that they can not legally do. Here are some links so that you can educate yourself, and pay special attention to “reasonable suspicion” and when it is needed to frisk someone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Amen...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_v._Oh...

As predicted the white liberal guilt demonstrated by LaurenCampbell made her see red before she could even read - I very carefully said:

"Does saying this make me a racist? Don't even try it. - I am realist and a nationalist. Legal Hispanic or Latino law abiding citizens are welcome here and always have been for decades before this gang issue became deadly."

There is a huge difference between a legal law abiding citizen who happens to be Hispanic and an illegal Mexican or South American who is a criminal. There is a huge difference between a legal immigrant and an illegal one. Stop trying to make them one and the same we are too intelligent for that to work, as much as you would like it to, so you can relieve your guilt for white racism throughout history (by the way ask blacks in Los Angeles who are more racist towards them -whites or Hispanics? Whites are not the only people capable of racism.) Yet, this has nothing to with racism - it has to do with Nationalism and respecting the law. Mexicans and South Americans are welcome when they obey the law and wait in line for legal immigration. I am sick of anyone that considers law enforcement to be racism and because someone is a certain race they should somehow be exempt from obeying laws - immigration or others. Stop being inflamed by your guilt and start realizing what is happening to this country as a result of our tolerance of law breaking people regardless of race just because they at some time in history may have been oppressed by racism. If whites or any other race happened to be committing these crimes the same laws and punishments apply. It just so happens that the law breakers are 95% or more Hispanic. Does that mean they should be exempt from obeying the law so we can avoid being labeled racist? Nice try your racism song and dance is getting old and it doesn't work any more. Even Hispanics know the difference between a law breaking Hispanic and a law abiding one. We are talking about the law breakers, not the hard workers. Put your racism BS away - you are the one that is generalizing here, assuming they are all good people who just come here to work. As there are those who come here to "do jobs Americans will not do" , There are just as many if not more who come here to "commit crimes Americans will not commit". Just look across the border at the drug cartels and tell me all of them are hard workers and good people. Your blind anti- racism is just as destructive as blind racism. Put on your glasses so you can see right and put away the rose colored ones before another teen has to die from your TOLERANCE of illegal activity.

By the way Lauren after reading more of your posts - -nobody is promoting the us vs them mentality more than yourself, by suggesting that this is a race issue in the first place. It is a crime issue. Illegal immigration just happens to be a crime, and the reason there are immigration laws in the first place is to prevent disorderly immigration. We do not even screen out criminals if we do not enforce immigration law. Why do you insist on promoting the us vs them mentality by saying people that believe in orderly immigration are racist? Why should anyone, regardless of race be allowed to enter the country unscreened, and if they have, why should they be rewarded for doing so without consequence? This only encourages more of the same, as we have seen. Why should those who do it the right way be put at the back of the line? This is the farthest thing from a race issue. You are the one making it into one.

InTheKnow... you are awfully vicious! I'm not saying illegal searching, I'm saying search gang members. They have a very specific style of dress and if they do not want to be hassled they can stop dressing like gang members.

Not all kids who dress that way are bad kids but they are making bad choices. I worked with teens for many years and most were from at risk homes and neighborhoods. If they dress like a gang member, chances are that they ARE a gang member or hang out with gang members. It's pretty simple and not the least bit prejudiced. It is unfortunately how things are. Fortunately, they are easy to spot and yes, it is within the law for the officers to stop and search them as being a part of a gang is ILLEGAL activity. It could save lives and maybe also help these boys to make other choices.

The biggest problem in our town are LOCAL gang bangers... you say "The people responsible are out of town bangers who come and stir up trouble."

I'm done having any interaction with you, your temper, tantrums and ridiculous statements are a waste of energy to read.

The sad part of all this is the harm that the gang members do to their own people and their own culture. These gangs' behavior help provide the rationale that racists are looking for to justify there own intolerance.

Furthermore the hispanic community needs to step-in and take more responsibility for dealing with the gang situation. When there are massive weekly community meetings and strategic plans being developed to deal with the gang violence in Santa Barbara, why are there so few members of the Mexican community at these meetings; other than the ones who work for a social service agency or a community-based organization? Why are there no gang members, gang member parents, family members, "local" community leaders, and clergy, etc. at these meetings? These meetings draw a lot of folks who work in the field of youth, drug and alcohol treatment, and "crime" prevention, but where are the people who are most impacted by gang activities and gang violence? We cannot grow complacent and depend on law enforcement to make everything right. We can not be comforted by the passing of time, the security of distance, nor the beauty of the environment in which we Santa Barbara residents live in; to trust that gang violence will not rear its' ugly head again.
What we share is our humanity. It is the common condition that makes us all equal. Hate, intolerance, and cruelty are human inventions - inventions which propose to deny us the solidarity and equality that is our right by birth.
If we want to make this a safer place to live in, then we each need to take some responsibility for our families, for our neighborhoods, for our communities, and for our country. Our law enforcement officials, and government officials can't do it by themselves. It takes a village.

I must say that in all the blogs I've ever read I don't think I've ever seen the activity I've seen on this blog. To think that I actually wondered if there would be any new posts when I signed on. (21 so far) Here is #22.

I think Santabarbarasand shows a deep understanding of the overall problem, and makes many eloquant points. The only thing I disagree with is the legality of seaching kids dressed like gangbangers.

Belkissa also makes good points, and perhaps I should have been more clear about after-school programs--at least to the extent of what they try to do and the good works of the people who work with kids--but while these programs work and no doubt turn around lives, the overall problem is getting worse at a much greater rate than these programs can deal with.

Gang injunctions are just pallative approach; we need to look at Washington, D.C. and the simple fact that our FEDERAL government for many years has spit in out collective face by creating this cheap labor nightmare which is the underlying cause of a cancer that is consuming the whole country bit by bit while the politicians/voters who support it couldn't care less about the impact it has on Mexico.

I agree with Lauren Campbell to a point about the trade agreements. I say this because from what I know, she's right and for what it's worth I found it suspicious that back what NAFTA was passed all the living U.S. presidents supported it in a very "Done deal" manner. That having been said, Mexico has never gotten it together enough politically to create a system that creates enough infrastucture to make its people want to stay. Instead, Mexico's government is more than happy to export its poorest and least educated across the border. So much for the Mexican government caring for its people as it talks out the other side of its crooked mouth about how intolerant the U.S. is. That having been said, the argument about who drives our buses etc, is not valid because in the past Americans cleaned the toilets, scrubbed the floors, did child care and so forth. Often liberals will use this argument perhaps not realizing they are undermining the pro working-class ideology they support. (And there is nothing wrong with supporting the working-class)

What we have is a situation where kids are growing up in a double-whammy situation: Parents that are simply working too many hours to be there to actually raise and (gasp!) DISCIPLINE their kids. (Something after-school programs can't do) The second problem, segued by my last comment, is that schools no longer can discipline kids. Something tells me that down in Mexico they wouldn't get away with the gang behavior. For what it's worth, my sister spends time down there and says people are more polite there than the people in the U.S. There is something to be said for the Old School of child-rearing.

What needs to happen is that people need to come out of their dream world and wake up. The rank-and-file policies of the Democrats and Republicans is all for the open border policy which fuels this nightmare. All the while, people keep voting status quo.

It should also be noted that when the people who run our public schools talk out one side of their collective mouth about "tolerance" "inclusion" and "diversity", while promoting a divisive group such as M.E.C.h.A., racial unity will not occurr. (What if a group of White people wanted such a group on campus...how long would that last...) To this end I will say that as long as we glorify slaveowners and Indian killers, M.E.C.h.A. supporters will have a valid point. I say teach the truth about how our country was founded and don't let Jeffferson, Washington, and others off the hook, but point out that there were others even back then that fought for fairness. Also point out that if such racism were still the case today, the civil rights movement would not have happened. (By the way, I'm not denying there still is racism) Also, point out there is a lot a Mexican-on-Mexican racism here--ask a Mexican kid trying to get good grades and break the "cadena perpetua" (Perpetual chain) cycle of gang culture. Also, let's not ignore the fact that while some, if not most of the Founding Fathers might have been hypocrites when it came to the rights of people, we shouldn't dismiss out of hand their ideas about government. After all, there IS a reason the U.S.has the infrastructure it does, and Mexico does not.

I say these things because there is a deep resentment many Mexican-Americans have toward the glorification of American History. What we see here is people reacting to both extremes.

People need to turn their rage toward the politicians and vote them out. Arguing among ourselves only serves the divide-and-conquer mentality of the people who are sticking it to us.

We need to serve notice to politicians at ALL levels that either they serve US, or they get fired.

Lots of valid points made by many people here, but a united front will be the only way to stop it.

Once again Santabarbarasand, I like your posts.

Wow santabarbarasand you apparently didn't read my post or are trying to turn my words around.

First I didn't say the biggest problem are out of town gang bangers, I was trying to explain to you why out of town cops come here during fiesta and the 4th of July celebrations. Apparently you did not comprehend what I was trying to say. Some examples; the guy shot by the cops last Fiesta, lived in Port Hueneme. The LA Crip gang banger from like 5 years ago that shot and killed a person on State St and then in turn got shot and killed by the cops, out of town. We get Carpas bangers, G13, Northsiders, Colonias, Chicas, the list goes on and on. They all live outside of SB. Who better to ID those guys then the cops from where they live? Do you see my point now?

Second, please quote me the penal code or law that says being in a gang is illegal, as you put it. I'm curious as to what you are referring to. Or are you just assuming there is one? Hint: there isn’t one, your wrong.

Apparently you didn’t read the websites I provided for you regarding when the government can search a person. .

Don’t get me wrong, I would love for the cops to be able to search everyone that looks like a gang banger. But they can’t and to blame them for not doing something that they can’t legally is asinine.

Oh and nice way to try and bait me with your last sentence but I’m not biting to stoop down to that.

Bill Clausen, I agree with your posts and very much agree with your points, well said.

arepe also, I liked your post, very well written and good points, especially the point on the community (it takes a village) We are all responsible for what happens here.

Ask a teacher about young people. My students are going into 7th grade and except for a 2 week AVID class, there is NOTHING for them to do during the summer or during the school year, after school.
Again, go talk to a teacher about the problems these kids face.
This is an abomination

In the Know..you missed the point entirely, illegal searches? profiling?, your inferences are skewed. If you ask any police officer to point out a wanna be (most of these kids are wanna bes), they can do it without a problem. If you ask them to point out a neo nazi skin head group, they can do that as well. Wanna bes dress alike period. So with your logic, does the training police officers receive to identify wanna bes et al illegal?

I would be willing to bet money that this whole tragedy started with some stupid name calling, two groups meeting, some routine mad-dogging going on, some words were said, and we have a dead teenager lying in the streets.

It is a crime to threaten people non-verbally by mad-doging them, but I'm sure none of that was going on. How soon you forget the other recent gang related deaths and other crimes the Indy doesn't report. I would say the police have a good case for probable cause if they see kids dressed in gang attire to intervene and ask questions. That is preventive, good police work.

The PD should take a page from the page book of the schools, where if kids dress in gang attire they could be suspended or possibly expelled.

Gang activity IS illegal or these idiots wouldn't be being charged with it as a crime. As noted in the article above here are the charges, "a 17-year-old for conspiracy to commit assault with a deadly weapon and GANG activity, a 15-year-old for active participation in a GANG, a 13-year-old for conspiracy to commit assault with a deadly weapon and GANG affiliation, and yet another 15-year-old for conspiracy to commit assault with a deadly weapon and GANG affiliation. Police arrested four adults: 21-year-old Miguel Marquez, 20-year-old Manuel Lira, 19-year-old Richard Garcia, and 18-year-old Edwin Miguel, all for active participation in a criminal street GANG."

Being in a gang IS not lawful and because it is obvious from the way that kids dress if they are in one or affiliated one, it just makes sense that they should be subject to at a minimum being patted down when seen out without their parents. If they truly aren't gang members they will change the way that the dress. If they ARE gang members they will tire of the pat downs & maybe hang out elsewhere or get a clue.

This overly understanding attitude towards these criminals is a large part of the problem. It DOES take a village and the village has to lay down rules that must be followed, especially by the younger and more impulsive parts of the village. Again, it's common sense. If their own parents won't set boundaries, someone has to.

What's wrong with asking that the law enforcement agencies be more aggressive? This is what we pay them for, to protect the peace and serve the public. Every single tax payer does their part by paying the salaries of those who choose to do that job. Do I think they have an easy job? No way. I couldn't do that job and have the utmost respect for the majority of police officers. However I do feel that they are being hampered from fully doing their job and protecting our city from gang members because of all of those people who want to coddle these kids. That behavior harms everyone, especially the gang members because it allows them to continue the lifestyle that they are creating for themselves.

So based on Santabarbarasand comments should the police search the twenty something crowd downtown for dressing provacativly because they might be prostitutes?

Get real! It is unreasonable to expect that law enforcement in the course of there job, are going to be able to target this population without laws that allow them to do so.

Nope asdfgh, just the gang bangers, it would save lives.

jeanror wrote:
"Ask a teacher about young people. My students are going into 7th grade and except for a 2 week AVID class, there is NOTHING for them to do during the summer or during the school year, after school.
Again, go talk to a teacher about the problems these kids face.
This is an abomination"

jeanror-
if that is the case, then why aren't there gangs and youth violence in every community throughout the entire county? There are approximately 20,000 kids under the age of 18 living in Santa Barbara. But only a handful of troublemakers from three gangs. Young people don't join gangs because they are bored and have nothing to do. They join gangs for the (false sense of) power, recognition, to feel important by association, for protection, for a sense of family, to feel that they will receive respect (in reality it's fear) on their turf, and to conquer those who are perceived as a threat.

The abomination isn't that there's nothing for the kids to do during the summer or after school, the abomination are the kids who can't find something to do, unless an adult hands it to them with a credit card. What ever happened to reading, listening or playing music, arts and crafts, hiking, bicycling, fishing, surfing, computer sites and electronic games, skateboards, soccer, tossing a football, baseball or frisbee around, a part-time job, etc. etc. etc... seems like there are sufficient activities to keep a young person busy, unless for some reason they're looking for an excuse.

jeanror wrote:
"Ask a teacher about young people. My students are going into 7th grade and except for a 2 week AVID class, there is NOTHING for them to do during the summer or during the school year, after school.
Again, go talk to a teacher about the problems these kids face.
This is an abomination"

Nothing for them to do?? Are you serious? Where have you been for the last year and a half? The City and community have practically broken their necks providing youth programs since the gang incident last year. Police activities league, teen centers, City recreation offerings, church youth groups, boys and girls clubs, YMCA, Little Leagues, Soccer, football basketball parks and sports everywhere, oceans mountains, beaches swimming pools, skateboarding parks bicycling ... Nothing to do how sad. If there should be any difficulty finding something to do in the most perfect year around climate with the most diverse offering of activities in the world. We should feel so sorry for them and throw more money at them and buy them toys and omg ... Maybe they are just little spoiled brats and nothing is good enough for them. Maybe they just don't have enough discipline. Maybe they just are not given any attention by their parents. It is costing a fortune and it isn't working because the troublemakers would rather cause trouble. It is a culture of drugs and violence. What is your next idea?

jeanror wrote:
"Ask a teacher about young people. My students are going into 7th grade and except for a 2 week AVID class, there is NOTHING for them to do during the summer or during the school year, after school.
Again, go talk to a teacher about the problems these kids face.
This is an abomination"

This is not a ghost town, there is plenty to do. What about all the boys/girls clubs activities? The after-school programs. More to the deeper question: Why wasn't this a problem in decades past? Was there more to do then?...and if so, please define what there was to do then as opposed to now.

Even if you prove to be right on this point it does not address the overall issue that we are treating the symptoms of our open border policy which ultimately is about A: Exploiting people; and B: accepting the idea that Mexico is a basket case incapable of solving its problems.

This problem cannot be solved on the local level because its a national problem that has finally blown up in Santa Barbara's face and when you consider the flood of people moving into already overcrowded neighborhoods is it any wonder all this is happening?

That's true, there are things to do in this town that do not cost money. They even opened up a youth center downtown, remember? There are gang prevention programs all over the place now and they set these kids up with apprenticeships... opportunities that again are not as readily available to the GOOD kids. There supposedly is a lot of involvement in these healthier activities by these at risk youth but there is still violence going on.

I agree that the options are different than they are for Elementary school aged kids but there are organizations that have sprung up all over the place since last years melee. Parents need to step up and make sure that they know what their children are doing and be willing to move elsewhere if this environment is leading their children to get into trouble. They need to do something while they still have some control over their children's lives! Instead it seems that they are looking the other way. Consequencing the parents too will encourage them to take some responsibility for what their kids are doing. Parents are consequenced if their children cut school, why not if their children are involved in gangs??

What purpose did the large SB Police Command Post Winnabego serve on Friday night? It was located approximately 25 feet away from the stabbings. Was it to provide better seating for our officers to view the fireworks?

I love how the doe-eyed liberal cries of "the youth have nothing to do in Santa Barbara" continue to be chanted while discussing a stabbing which occurred during ONE OF THE LARGEST FIREWORKS DISPLAYS IN THE STATE. What more are we supposed to do to entertain the youth. Have a marching band, clowns, jugglers and fire eaters parading up and down the streets every weekend night? There was plenty of entertainment on the night in question. Plenty of "things to do". Stop pawning this incident off on the "idle youth" excuse. It's tired and it completely fails to hold the guilty accountable. Hint: it's the guy holding the bloody knife at the end of the night.

No more money for youth activities. Not a single dime. It won't matter if you open a teen center on every corner, as the fundamental problem lies much deeper. Parents who have more children than they can afford to raise. A pervasive "culture" of machismo that we are supposed to respect less we are accused of being insensitive to "the other". And, likely, felons raising future felons of America.

I will not be the least bit surprised if one or more of the assailants has at least one ex-con for a parent. We need to start implementing voluntary sterilization as part of prison credit. One year of sentence credit to any inmate who undergoes a tubal ligation or vasectomy while serving time. Criminal parents by and large raise criminal children - roughly 700% compared to the non-criminal populace.

The time for touchy freely support groups has ended. That solution becomes more ridiculous every single time a teenager's blood soaks our sidewalks and streets.

DarkMarcsun is a genius! end of story.

Just for the record, the reason all the rich montecito kids aren't out there gang banging is because, they are all filling their noses with cocaine and smoking meth which by the way they purchase from these gang bangers.
Hopefully the rich white kids will O.D. so they can stop supplying these dealers with money

The "liberal" solutions actually do work, as long as there is the political will to support them. Most xenophobic right wingnuts, many of whom are airing their grievances here, wouldn't dream of it, however, since they firmly believe the playing field is somehow level, even as income disparity rises to levels not seen since the great depression. What's mine is mine, they say, disregarding the fact that it was obtained on the backs of the people who are reacting (inappropriately, but reacting nonetheless) to their oppression. If for once the right wingnuttery could regard every human life, not just their own or those of "their people", with the respect and dignity that is our birthright, they might start to see the solutions that go beyond throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

To respond to MAJORDEAN, no, you missed the point. My problem with SANTABARBARASAND’s original posting was she was blaming the police for doing something that they legally can not do. They can not search a person solely based on what they are wearing, absent some other legal justification. This is from the state law, the Constitution, and case law. Just because they can look at someone and know they are or suspect they are a gang member is not illegal. People, including the police, are entitled to their opinions. It is when they act solely on those suspicions that the court has ruled the searches bad.

You are also wrong on your assumption that merely “mad-doging” someone is a crime. Sorry it takes more then a mere look to be a criminal act. I don’t disagree with a lot of what santabarbara or you are saying; it is just when you are wrong about something and blame others that I feel the need to correct you. Oh and FYI the police can not “suspend” or “expel” a kid from school, only schools can. They are two separate entities. I really think you think the police have a lot more power then what they really have.

Now to santabarbarasand AGAIN. Being a gang member by itself, as I said before, is not illegal. Acting in furtherance of a gang by committing a crime is. That is what they were arrested for. I know the law, trust me, I know it a lot better then you do. They were arrested for 186.22 of the Penal Code. In part it states (in plain English for you) that if someone commits a crime (which are listed in the section) and is part of a recognized organized gang they have committed a separate offense in and above the original crime. Please look it up and not assume based on what you read here online for being the basis of your opinions. Merely being an associate or a member of a gang is not a crime, there is no section of the law for that, hopefully there will be not now. So again, the police can not (and I am not saying I support this, it is just the way it is) search someone based on solely the way they dress.

You “pay their salary” tirade is trite and irrelevant. Again I find fault with your assumptions that they should “be more aggressive” as you put it but what you are really advocating is for them to do something illegal. Educate yourself; support the police, talk with them and ask questions instead of criticizing. They are part of the community, they care deeply about this problem, and people like you that just blame ignorantly are not helping build anything. All you are doing is dividing amongst people trying to fix the problem. Don’t be so stubborn that you can’t admit that your initial idea or thought was wrong. I’ve proved it several times. Again I wish the police could search the gang bangers based on their style of dress, BUT LEGALLY THEY CAN NOT.

Whatphotosb: In this country people of all stripes have engaged in violence, it does not come down to race or ethnicity. Blacks, whites, Asians, Latinos, yes, all of the above. Go pick up a national paper. If being empathetic and tolerant is "touchy-feeley" to you, well, I'm sorry for whomever suffers though living with you. Nothing is lost by employing a little empathy. Go try it. You might make a friend.

Santabarbarasand: Let me just say I HUGELY appreciate the civil way in which you addressed my comments. It reflects a sincerity and maturity on your part and even though we do appear to disagree on a few things you make it easy to respect your position and where you're coming from. Thank you, thank you.

RForsyth: Yeah, I do find your comments racist. Maybe you should pay closer attention to what you're saying. Oh, and politicising this discussion accomplishes nothing. You have no idea where my political leanings lie. Let me just assert right now that no, I'm not a "liberal", and I'm not "white", but am amused at how you use these labels for the purpose of petty traducement. It's so, so juvenile. And don't you dare put words in my mouth. "Why do you insist on promoting the us vs them mentality by saying people that believe in orderly immigration are racist?". I NEVER said that. Don't you even try to cast aspersions based on your own flimsy prejudices. It's not going to work with me.

BillClausen: I agree with you about the Mexican government. I also agree wholeheartedly with your remarks on parents needing to spend more time with their children. This was my original assertion, if anybody actually read what I said instead of lamely affixing derogating labels, ie. "touchy-feely" (like it's a bad thing...). However, I don't know precisely what you mean by "old school" and "discipline" so I hesitate to agree with you there. Discipline is the the practice of training people to follow a code of behavior, punishment is the infliction of a penalty for failing to follow these directives. I believe in discipline before punishment. Children have a natural deisre to please and need to be given age-appropriate limits PLUS avenues for their self-expression (Anyone who wants to disagree with me here first needs to go pick up some child development literature...).

To all: Many teenagers rebel, however these particular teens were rebelling against not just their parents but the entire system, while allowing themselves to become consumed by the hostility of gang life and the small-minded paranoia it promotes. Calling these teens "idiots", "low-life", "unsavory" is cruel and unhelpful. They are troubled and agitated and obviously even dangerous at times but they are people, too, and they deserve our help and some very stern intervention before being subject to public disparagement.

Is it just me or does "InTheKnow" seem hostile? I can't take hostile people seriously. If they have good points it won't even matter because something about them just offends me.

Well Kudos to Mayor Blum who said on KEYT that we need "more indicents quicker" in order for her to support a gang injunction.

I would like her to let us know how many more kids needs to be killed before her definition of "more and quicker" are met.

What reason is there to every oppose a gang injunction.

Then again she called it a rumble...how does a person like this become mayor?

To asdfgh,

Fiesta is a month away. Surely that will fulfill Mayor Blum's quota.

I think that the fact that the boy who murdered the other last year in the gang melee downtown has not been tried or convicted yet is sending a bad message to the gang members out there. So many have fought to try him as a juvenile, not as an adult, and now he has another guy who will be joining him. Will there be another public outcry if he is charged as an adult? What kind of message will that send to these people who are committing adult hate crimes?

I strongly feel that trials need to be quicker than this and that in these particular situations there needs to be a clear message sent to the gang members that this behavior will NOT be tolerated. Kids, teens and young adults DO often think that they are invincible and with the level of protection these offenders get, it is no wonder they are pushing things to these limits. We all need boundaries! Why aren't we setting them and enforcing them?

I for one love Fiesta and plan to go out at least one night and what is sad is that I know that the entire time I will be watching for these types of people and hoping they don't get into any fights near where I am. I have never felt unsafe at our 4th of July fireworks before and after this year, I don't know if that will be the case. Why should we have to suffer for the bad choices of a handful of ignorant and dangerous children?

LaurenCampbell writes: "BillClausen: I agree with you about the Mexican government. I also agree wholeheartedly with your remarks on parents needing to spend more time with their children. This was my original assertion, if anybody actually read what I said instead of lamely affixing derogating labels, ie. "touchy-feely" (like it's a bad thing...). However, I don't know precisely what you mean by "old school" and "discipline" so I hesitate to agree with you there..."

I will clarify: Kids are raised differently today than they were in decades past. All I can do is share my experience, as all of our experiences differ. I was born in 1961 in Chicago where I lived until 1973. During that time I went to Catholic school. When I was in first grade spanking was outlawed but the nuns still had ways to get to you. I was an unruly kid who thank God had parents who spanked me when I rebelled against their rules. Also, the nuns had a great way of making us stay after school and write 50 times "when in class I shall be quite and respectful and at times. I shall conduct myself in an orderly way". Isn't it funny how I can still remember that? Obviously they made quite an impression on me.

I was never disciplined for bad judgement or making mistakes--only when I knew what I was doing was wrong and did it anyway. Like all my friends, I realized that if I didn't rebel, no harm would come to me. Also, my parents and the nuns were very supportive when I didn't mess up. As I recall, the public school kids in the neighborhood who were my friends didn't mess up much either. In short, we did not have an "at-risk youth" problem.

I came out to S.B. and was enrolled in public school and from that point on I saw kids getting away with things that would have been unthinkable back in the Catholic school where I attended. I don't know how much of it was a California thing, or a public school thing, but I can also tell you the bullying was MUCH more rampant when I moved here because in the "old school" (literally and figuratively) such kids would have been disciplined and if that didn't work, would have been thrown out.

I am convinced that had I grown up in an environment such as many kids today grow up where they have no fear of consequences for their actions, my life would have taken a similar path.

When you consider that these kids are being raised by the schools, and by other kids, and by whatever social programs are available, they will not grow up with the balance of love and discipline they need.

The fact is the U.S. is nothing more than a safety valve for Mexico's government. Business interests here will hire as many illegal immigrants as possible because they can work them long hours under conditions no one should have to work under. This phenomenon effectively has done away with the progress that the labor movement which started over 100 years ago has made. Curiously, I hear some voices on the political Left repeating the old yore of "They do the work no one else will do" because these people can't reconcile their Leftist beliefs with the fact that they are undermining the very cause for which the labor movement stands.

Then there are the kids. The kids are latchkey kids so even if their parents are good people, the parents simply aren't around to raise them.

As long as America stands by and allows the immigration standard that was once enforced to go unenforced, (Oh and to be fair, I heard President Bush say the very line "They do the work Americans simply won't do") this gang problem will continue to explode. We can curse Marty Blum, Cam Sanchez, and other local leaders, but the problem is one of demented national policy which ignores the good of the people on BOTH sides of the border.

Santa Barbara is an overcrowded, overpriced place. Much of California is the same way. Mass importation of impoverished people is a suicidal move since doing so only hypes up the supply-and-demand housing situation. Also, a look around the world shows that succesful countries have strong educated middle-classes and the U.S.'s support of this open border policy with its aim toward importing the least educated people Mexico (and other countries) has to offer (and keeping them that way by giving everything away in their native language) is doing away with the middle class and only boosting the already wealthy people on both sides of the border.

santabarbarasand I'm sorry you find me hostile, that was never my intention. I know I can be brash and curt but I was not trying to offend you. Now I see why you were so stuborn in your opinion, it wasn't so much what I was telling you. It was how you thought I should have said it nicer. I stand behind what I have told you as the truth, I hope somehow I have changed your assumptions.

Thanks InTheKnow, I believe you. I can be very stubborn in my opinion regardless lol! My basis is personal experience and while I do not promote prejudice or harrassment of any type, I'm fed up like the rest of the people on here. Looking for solutions is what we are all doing and some of us are trying to be PC, while others think that is part of the problem! The US has catered to imm